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| CLOSING ARGUMENTS This discussion centred around the issue of Jat-Sikhs and their caste emphasis. Chober Singh Sandhu has consistently denied that Jats practice this evil. My question is: Can a Brahmin or a Kshatriya be included in the OBC category. If the answer is NO, then it is evident that they are denied because of their high-caste status in Hindu society. Communities who are granted the OBC status are from low-caste background. This also justifies the low-caste status of Jats in the Hindu caste system. Mr Sahota made a passing mention that Jat-Sikhs don't believe in caste because they have a Scythian origin however Jats from Haryana are still a part of the caste system. My question to him: When did Haryana come into being. Wasn't Haryana and Punjab a part of the same landscape. If Jat-Sikhs have a Scythian origin then where did Jats of Haryana come from. Honolulu!!! Unfortunately, today, Jats have started to treat others as lower than them. This is what is HILARIOUS. People who for hundreds of years were humiliated for being low-caste are now inflicting the same treatment not even understanding the foolishness of their deed. The rest of my closing argument is cut-and-paste of what I have already posted. Mr Sandhu put forward an argument that Europeans were treated as untouchables by Brahmins. What he fails to realize is that Europeans RULED the sub-continent. They were the masters. If he's trying to convince anyone that Brahmins were busy purifying the Europeans then he'll be laughed at. The anecdote he presented was from 35 years ago, AFTER India had won its independance. I asked him three questions which he didn't care to answer but replied back by saying that he had already "obliged" me by answering them. Even in his closing arguments he did not care to address these specific questions. Since this topic is closed, I'll leave it for the reader to decide. 1. Why should Jat-Sikhs insist on separate matrimonial category? 2. Why should Jat-Sikhs not allow non-Jat Sikhs to cremate their dead body in a common creamation ground? 3. Why should Jat-Sikhs consider themselves high-caste people when all evidence proves to the low-caste status of Jats? Further he talked about OBC and low-caste. I have already provided him with information on how the Indian systems defines these categories. Jats fall in the OBC only because they have been able to PROVE their low-caste status equivalent to that of Shudras. I've provided him names of Jat-Sikhs, Baldeo Singh and Surinder Pal Singh (of Sikh Jat Sangharsh Smiti) who seem to have more following than he does. Both of these "Jat-Sikhs" are busy CALLING themselves and their fellow Jat-Sikhs as backward CASTE people. Baldeo Singh has the distinction of getting the Allahabad High Court to accept his plea that CLAIMS Jat-Sikhs as backward CASTE people. I have also posted the news item that Mr Sandhu seems to totally disregard. It doesn't matter what he or Adish Pal Singh feel about the OBC, the truth is that Jat-Sikhs are themselves declaring their backward CASTE status. So, what is it I'm trying to get through to him: "He's Barking Up The Wrong Tree." (to be taken figuratively) Indeed, he is. Does he seriously think he can convince anyone on this forum that Jat-Sikhs are not Backward Castes or Jats in general are not low-caste people when all evidence points to that. All of this discussion was not necessary if only he had REALIZED how bad the situation was. What is the situation? The situation is, Jat-Sikhs INSISTING on being called backward CASTES and to claim this status are quoting history to prove the low-caste status of Jats in Indian society. There is no reason to deny the low-caste status of Jats in caste ridden Hindu society. It is an established fact. Chober Singh Sandhu can't prove it otherwise. Not after reading his unintelligent, highly emotional and rather vague explanations. Of course, neither can McLeod whom he diligently quotes. The most unfortunate thing in all of this, which I tried to highlight but got lost in a maze of intense stupidity, is the foolishness of many Jat-Sikhs in 1. Creating categories within the community by dividing Sikhs into Jat-Sikhs and non-Jat Sikhs. 2. Calling themselves "high-caste" people and treating other non-Jat Sikhs as low-caste, when all evidence points to the low-caste status of Jats in the Hindu-caste system. 3. More sinister of all, by getting the legal system to DECLARE them as backward castes in total contradiction to the equality bestowed upon them by the great Gurus and our revered SGGS. But, "Jat-Sikhs" like him can never learn. Isn't he the one who would rather curse at the Guru than accept his fault. Here again he quotes McLeod to justify his foolishness. If Mcleod's argument justifies his foolishness it should also prove the worth of Dr Mcleod's views. My response to both Chober Singh Sandhu and the Scholar(?) Dr McLeod is the following: http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/7900099ad632240a872568f100075b84!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 For all those who would like to read what concerns Sikhs about McLeod's works please check the following links: Book Review - Who's A Sikh http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/c0fc813e851b0a4d872568e60052be3a!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Book Review - Sikh Heritage in Paintings http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/89e6e64b1ad86335872567ee0055c73d!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Trumpp, McLeod and Others http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/8d1ff6f538e51cbd872568e80071e480!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Perspectives of The Sikh Tradition (some Excerpts from the Book) http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/d4d57bd894193fe5872566db00102bc4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Book Review - The Sikhs http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/c8ff637c1f873805872568d10056223f!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Gurdwara Panja Sahib http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/04263f603e434cb2872566dc00053c7e!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Are Sikh Chairs Serving Sikh Interests http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/62d3eccb3ebd81278725684200599db4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Does Mr Sandhu really think that by giving foolish arguments he will win anyone's respect. It won't happen. He's Barking Up The Wrong Tree. This was my suggestion to him before. I'll repeat it again. File a petition against the verdict of the Allahabad High Court and PROVE to them that Sikhs don't believe in inequality. That there cannot be anything like Jat-Sikh; and that when you're ancestors converted to Sikhism they shed away the prejudiced caste ideology and with that their low-caste status; that Sikhs been guaranteed equality by the religion we follow. Simulatenously, contact this "Jat-Sikh" leader Surinder Pal Singh and impress upon him the absurdity of staking claim to backward CASTE status. Tell him that you're Sikhs and not Jat-Sikhs and by virtue of being Sikhs you are equal and not BACKWARD. After he has done these two things he should come back to the forum and tell us how it proceeds. Keep us informed. Otherwise he's wasting his time, my time and everybody else's time. He's Barking Up The Wrong Tree. Funny as it might seem, he then accused me for not providing him references in support of my argument. Here are the references for everyone to read. Allahabad Hight Court Verdict (Jat Sikhs are Backward Castes) Synopsis of the case A Jat-Sikh Baldeo Singh filed a petition in ALlahabad High Court to declare that jat-Sikhs are backward caste people. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/2d2351ea41aecdfc872569d600464d58!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 Mr Sandhu go talk to baldeo Singh. You're wasting your time trying to convince us when the court has already passed its ruling on a petition forwarded by a Jat-Sikh Baldeo Singh. Punjab High Court Lahore (Jats are Shudras) Synopsis of case: Jats are seeking to be included in the category of Other backward Castes (OBC). They are quoting the verdict of Punjab High Court, lahore which declared that jats are at the same level as Shudras. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/F24221010114045B872569DE0054EC45?OpenDocument "....Several eminent Jats of Haryana in their memoranda submitted to the Backward Classes Commission set up by the Haryana government in 1990 have eloquently pleaded for the grant of a lower caste status to there community on the ground that there is a ruling of the Punjab High Court, Lahore, declaring the Jats as Shudras; that al-Bruni found them to be Shudras....." Hundreds of Jat-Sikhs Protest Synopsis: Jat-Sikhs are protesting that the Government include them in the category of backward castes. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/63ef020568094eaa872569db005206db!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 "....Demanding their inclusion in the Other Backward Castes (OBC) category, hundreds of Jat-Sikhs staged a dharna on Thursday in front of the District Collector's office here. The protesters were agitating under the aegis of the Jat-Sikh Sangharsh Samiti. Mr Surinder Pal Singh of the samiti said the agitation would be intensified in case the state government did not accede to the demand...." What is OBC (Other Backward Castes) http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/2021F4CE16040AC8872569D800548DA8?OpenDocument "...The term caste was used for Jats and also for Varnas......The castes, which were the elite of the Indian society, were classified as high castes. The other communities were classified as lower castes or lower classes. The lower classes were listed in three categories......The third category is called sometimes Other Backward Classes (OBC) or Backward Classes. This category includes in it castes who belong to "Sudra Varna" and also former "untouchables"........" Jats Trading Caste Status For Empowerment http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/111FEC8052DAB53C872569D80054D6CC?OpenDocument Then he raised the issue of RACE. He quoted people - Scotts, Irish, Italians or whatever. People do a lot of things. Let them believe in races. Isn't that the reason why there are race related crimes around the world. How did the term "racist" come into existence. Does he have a clue. Here too, Sikhism diagrees with other traditions. Sikhism believes that there is JUST ONE RACE.......the HUMAN RACE. How should it matter if you're European, African, Native Indian, Aboriginal they're all from the same source and hence belong to the same race - a common divinity. It's this simple. If he still insist taking pride in the Jat-Sikh race then how does he justify wrongs done by Jats in the name of their "race." These examples were posted on Sikhnet. 1. Jat-Sikhs marrying within one another. Separate category in matrimonial section. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/26923b4a2a32e342872569c9000e9b0b!OpenDocument&Highlight=0 2. Jat-Sikhs preventing non-Jat Sikhs to cremate a dead body in a Jat-Sikh creamation ground. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/A42117C41CAB0A40872569D7000E6DE4?OpenDocument 3. Jat-Sikhs asking Amritdhari Sikhs to leave the langar hall because they were converts from [some] low-caste. http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/3d8d6eacce83bad8872564280070c2b3/9282175BF8C0798C872569D70018AC13?OpenDocument My original question remains. To all people who consider themselves Jats and Sikhs: "Why do you hestitate to file a petition against the Allahabad High Court Judgement which says Jat Sikhs are backward caste people?" If you are so certain that Jats are not low-caste people then why the hesitation. Don't you think that you should clear this doubt once for all. I would have hoped to see tens of thousands of petitions filed against this judgement. There isn't any. NOT EVEN ONE. Don't you think this is INCREDIBLE. Obviously, Jats agree to their low caste status otherwise they would have protested. Now lets see what do Jat-Sikhs protest. They are protesting to CONVINCE the Indian Government to INCLUDE them as Backward caste people. The following quote describes this situation best: "The philosophies of one age have become the absurdities of the next, and the foolishness of yesterday has become the wisdom of tomorrow." --Sir William Osler To Jat-Sikhs: Give me one good reason for your hesitation. All of you guys are wasting your time. I don't stand convinced that Jats reject casteism. File the petition, win the case and then come join us on this forum to discuss the issue. This is a challange. Whinning and complaining but not doing anything. You need to DO and not COMPLAIN. The foolishness of some people who will go to any length to justify their casteist mindset is evident at their pointing fingers at our Gurus. The Gurus were Khatris and they married within Khatris, so they say. These are also the people who like Chober Singh, consider McLeod an authentic scholar(?) of Sikhism. What can I say? Please read the works of McLeod and those of the people who have pointed out his errors. Make up your own mind. All of you are intelligent people. So I believe. What doesn't seem to register in their [not so] brilliant minds is that when someone accepts Sikh philosophy they reject all unSikh principles. Rather than accepting their inability they want to cast aspersions on others. Asking me if I favor Ahluwalias' over others is OK, but to make foolish comments about the Gurus shows their level of stupidity. They can never seem to get over the casteist FRAMEWORK. Interestingly, I had also posted an article by an Indian Christian who felt sick at the thought of some Christians calling themselves Brahmin Christians. What I'm trying to say is that it is extremely difficult for these people to think outside the casteist framework. It is so deeply rooted that by instinct they will define anything in terms of casteism. Just like a blind man always FEELS darkness these people are engulfed in the darkness of their own making. Just like the "frogs of a well" cannot think of a world outside THEIR well, fools who think within casteist framework don't understand that there is something outside this framework. Something far better. But, they resist the opportunity to better themselves even if they have to curse at the Gurus to justify their foolishness. Tell me, how should we deal with these people. This is my advice to them: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Henry W. Longfellow. Finally, came another participant. His name is Yamla Jatt. He is also the creator of the website Jat.com. One would imagine that people who create websites on specific themes are themselves well read. Unfortunately, Yamla doesn't fall in that category. This is my opinion based upon the childish remarks he's made. Nowehere did he give any intelligent reason in support of his casteist mindset. Just childish remarks and accusing people of being agents and upto [some undefined] dirty tricks. With Jat [intellectuals ?] like him no wonder today Jats are seeking reservations and backward caste status for themselves. My advice to all my "Jat-Sikh" friends - BEWARE of such Jatts. They will lead you to doom. Regards |
