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| "Shudras in power treat Dalits as subjects as they cannot treat Brahmans as subjects. They point to the social monster called Brahmans, rob Dalits' support, then oppress Dalits." Chandra Bhan Prasad is perhaps India's only dalit who gets to write a weekly column in a mainstream English newspaper, Pioneer. He also runs the Dalit Siksha Andolan and has emerged as one of the key spokespersons of the dalit movement in India. Chandra Bhan lives with his wife, Meera, in Delhi. Here, in this exhaustive interview, the intellectual shares his views with Siriyavan Anand, journalist-activist, on a wide range of issues that concern the dalit movement in India today. Anand is currently anthropologically examining brahmans and brahmanism having been born one. He is associated with Dalit Media Network, Chennai. The interview was conducted in the last week of February 2001; 30-plus questions were emailed and Chandra Bhan Prasad said he took four days to reply. (Please mail feedback to ands@ambedkar.org and meera5@vsnl.com) ************** SIRIYAVAN ANAND: How does it feel to be (perhaps) the sole English language dalit journalist in the country? CHANDRA BHAN PRASAD: No. I am not a journalist in the classic sense of the term. I am at best a researcher, and an activist. But I write in the mainstream media. The column [Dalit Diary] in the English Daily, 'Pioneer', a paper now 137 years old which originated from Lucknow, is translated and used by the Telugu daily, 'Vaartha', and is the first Dalit column... so people tend to think that I am a journalist. Yes, since I am the first and the only Dalit columnist in the English language press, I feel self-conscious and burdened with responsibilities ? from a population of over 20.5 crore Dalits, which is more than the combined population of France, the UK and Germany, only one regular commentator in the Indian mainstream media. There is more to be researched, more to be commented upon, but a single-man army? ************** Question: Could you identify the central issues facing dalits today? Is it possible to see the dalit movement in a national/ pan-Indian sort of way at all, say like the hindutva movement? Central question? We all know: land, quality education for all Dalits, democratisation of KNOWLEDGE, and public institutions including media, democratization of the capital, redefining democracy, etc. Unless English-speaking Dalits take up the Dalit movement as their profession, a pan-Indian Dalit movement will remain a dream. ************** Question: Do you subscribe to the term 'bahujan' or the idea of 'oppressed majority' formulated by Phule and which has found contemporary rearticulation in Kancha Ilaiah's writings? Elaborate... It is not the majority which is oppressed, it the minority, it is the Dalits. Do you think Shudra communities such as Thevars, Vanniyars, Chettiyars, Gaudas, Lingayats, Vokkaligas, Kammas, Reddies, Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars, Kurmis, Patels, Marathas are oppressed communities? When Phule talked of uniting with Shudras, the Shudras then were only the social police of the Brahmans; they were tenants. Today, they own land, most of the rural assets and institutions. They have a fair share in the media, cinema, and urban assets as well. All the four chief ministers in the South are of Shudra origin, including the CMs of Maharashtra, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana, Bihar. Thus, ten major States are ruled by Shudra Chief Ministers. What is the condition of Dalits in these States? Kanch Ilaiah is a Shudra scholar. He targets Dalits sentiments. Tells them that Brahmans are the creators of the Chatur-Varna Order, that they developed the notion of untouchability. And therefore, they must be destroyed. Dalits tend to get emotionally moved. But, he never says that it is not the Brahman, it is the Brahmanical Order which has to be destroyed. He never says that upper Shudras are turning more Brahmanical than Brahmans themselves. He never tells what is the performance of Shudra governments in the South and elsewhere. He never tells us what the Thevars do to Dalits in Tamil Nadu, or Kammas and Reddies do in Andhra Pradesh. ************** Question: Ilaiah, foregrounding his position as an OBC, has talked about the need to dalitise the nation as a challenge to savarna cultural hegemony. Do you think it is possible/ okay to identify something like 'dalit' culture as a distinct category? Or does that amount to essentialising... In fact, Kancha is drafting an intellectual trap to Shudraise the nation's culture. Dalits and Shudras differ culturally as much as Dalits and Brahmans do. Shudras and Brahmans are culturally more close to each other than Shudras and Dalits. Dalits are a distinct social category, and so is there culture. ************** Question: If you reject Ilaiah's diagnosis of brahmanic hinduism and his positing the need for dalitisation of the savarnas, including the OBCs, what cultural alternative must we pose to the 'brahmanic' model, especially in the context of the pressure on dalits and other subaltern communities who, while coming to enjoy the benefits of urban modernity, are forced to 'brahmanise'. What can be done to prevent the proliferation of what some dalit intellectuals have identified as the 'dalit brahman'? How do we get dalits to be proud of being dalit? Dalits have a distinct culture. But we should not glorify it. Neither do we want Brahman/Shudra culture. We want European culture, which is the best. When West's economic model is turning out to be the standard model for most nations, why not their culture? Every Dalit who is happy today, it is because he is westernised. With which culture was Dr. Ambedkar more close to? Was it not western? In fact, if you examine minutely, Dalits are culturally more close to western culture than cultures anywhere. ************** Question: How should dalit intellectuals, especially historians, look at history? Recently Gopal Guru has argued that the dalits have no nostalgia; what they remember is 'only the history of humiliation and exploitation'. Your comments. Gopal is right. I largely agree with him. But I would like to add one thing: Dalits must look at history, rather write history of non-Dalits from a Dalit perspective. That will help Dalits as there is continuity of the doctrine of exclusion. Untouchability was nothing but a doctrine of exclusion where Dalits were denied all rights, access to wealth and institutions. Dalits can conclusively prove that Romila Thapar practices that doctrine. So did Bipan Chandra. The Department of History in JNU grew under the shadow of Bipan and Romila. But, they did not allow a single Dalit to become a teacher. They threw constitutional provisions into the dustbin. Today, the same Romila Thapar talks of defending the Constitution. So is the performance of Sumit Sarkar. These historians have distorted history; and in terms of vision, they are closer to the Sangh Parivar. They have the same view of British Imperialism that the Sangh Parivar propagates. To the Dalits, the coming of British gave great relief... ************** Question: Isn't the intellectual liberation of nondalits, starting with the brahmans, important for dalit liberation? Can a dalit struggle take place independent of the emancipation of all castes? Isn't it necessary to dialogue with the oppressors, though the possibilities of such a dialogue ? a scenario where a brahman listens to dalits and is willing to change ? seem remote right now. Where and how do we start, given that dalit consciousness and brahman revivalism seem to be happening simultaneously? We must be clear in what we mean by DALIT LIBERATION. Dalits have to first and foremost cross the transition phase: that no Dalit remains as landless agricultural labourer, no Dalit remains uneducated, Dalits have a fair representation in English medium schools, higher education, a fair representation in public institutions, several hundred of Dalits as millionaires, their housing issues are resolved, they have access to good healthcare etc. Only after these basic questions are resolved, Dalits can think of the battle for complete emancipation. It is wrong to sell a dream which is not likely to be achieved. This abstraction of Dalit struggles is dangerous as it dilutes the immediate agenda of the community. Yes, Dalits must convincingly tell nondalits that they too are in the bondage of the Chatur-Varna Order. Nondalits' intellectual emancipation is very important, for unless they undergo emancipation, Social Democracy can be accomplished. It is extremely necessary to tell Brahmans that once Shudras capture political power at the all-India level, the first thing they would do is destroy democratic institutions. Then, the Shudras will unleash SOCIAL FASCISM in India, which will not harm Dalits alone; Brahmans too will face humiliation. The real danger of revivalism of Brahmanism rests with Shudras, and the Brahmans will be the immediate victims of Brahmanism. ************** Question: What is your position on conversions? Since reservation in the public sector hardly matters given that government jobs are shrinking, and being counted as a 'hindu dalit' has no social benefits whatsoever, do you see the possibility of dalits embracing new religions ? islam, christianity or buddhism ? if these faiths offer them not just dignity and respect but also tangible material benefits like education, jobs... What threat does this pose to localised dalit spiritual traditions, faith-spaces? If there is any Dalit who 'feels' that he/she is a 'Hindu', then he/she must immediately switch over to any other religion, preferably Buddhism. This could be an ideal position. But will this kind of conversion lead to emancipation as well, spiritual or material? What is our experience? Those who switched over to Christianity, turned into 'Dalit-Christian', those who embraced Sikhism, became 'Dalit-Sikh', those who sought Islam became 'Dalit Muslims' and those who converted to Buddhism, are called Neo-Buddhists, equivalent of 'Dalit-Buddhist'. The Dalit intelligentsia must rely more on its intelligence, genius, than on emotion, and try to find out why even after changing one's religion, a Dalit continues to be identified with his/her earlier identity. Those who have a clearer idea of the Chatur-Varna Order, or the Caste System, must keep this basic fact in mind ? that, there is no Varna or Caste, in the traditional Chatur-Varna Order, without an OCCUPATIONAL identity, and vice-versa. Thus, unless a Dalit changes his/her occupation, which is historically imposed on him/her, and chooses an occupation, or is caused to choose one, no real emancipation can occur. Since conversions are not necessarily accompanied by a change in occupation, he/she continues to be identified with his/her traditional occupation and Dalit identity, and thus turns into DALIT-CHRISTIAN, DALIT-SIKH, DALIT MUSLIM, NEO-BUDDHIST etc. |
